Alice in Wonderland

This week I’m joined by two very special guests, Warsha Joshi and Evan Le Clus of the Dare to Scale Show. We’re diving into a discussion about a classic children’s book: Alice in Wonderland. I believe it’s not just for children, but everyone of every age can learn many valuable lessons from this book. We’re going to be talking about the main lessons we can learn from the book that have to do with entrepreneurship, and how you can apply those lessons to your life.

Connect with Dhiren:


Episode Highlights:

  • 03:00 How we can learn so much about entrepreneurship through children’s books and why we decided to talk about Alice in Wonderland in particular
  • 07:50 Why it’s always about getting the first step out of the way
  • 09:21 What stops a lot of people from taking the first step towards entrepreneurship?
  • 12:07 How to get over our shame of asking for help and why it’s actually the bravest thing you can ever do?
  • 12:54 Letting go of a preconceived notion from the corporate world
  • 15:19 The only validation we need is from ourselves
  • 20:35 The difference between a coach and a mentor
  • 27:28 Responding with our model of the world versus listening to someone else who has a different reality 
  • 35:54 The reason we sometimes stop ourselves from being “mad”
  • 48:43 Thanking yourself for an experience that taught you something instead of drowning in regret and self-doubt


“The simplest message is hidden in the simplest of sentences. And those we find in children’s books.” – Warsha Joshi

“There’s only one way to find out is to actually start doing it. Talking about it is only going to take you so far. Start it, begin the journey. Only then there is you even have a hope of finishing something. Otherwise, it’s just a conversation.” – Warsha Joshi

“If you’re overly cautious and you’re using excuses, of course, you’re gonna find all the reasons why you shouldn’t. If you just jump in, you’ll move forward and actually get something done.” – Evan Le Clus

“Beginning something as a first step, no matter how dirty it is, or how improvised it is, doesn’t really matter. It’s about getting the first step out of the way.” – Dhiren Bhatia

“It’s about believing in the magic that you can create for yourself because you’ve already created that… It’s about realizing where you’re at and appreciating what you have. So we are all in a fairytale. And we have to love it and believe in it because that’s our fate and you can be whatever you want it to be.” – Dhiren Bhatia


Thank you for listening! I hope you enjoyed this episode and I’d love to hear your feedback. You can email me at and help me improve or if you have someone in mind that would be a great guest on the show, feel free to recommend them via email.

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Thanks, and lots of love,

Dhiren Bhatia

Dhiren 0:01
Hello, hello and a very big welcome to the Elevated Entrepreneur podcast, I am super excited to be back in the studio and sharing today’s episode that I recorded with Warsha and Evan and we are talking about business lessons from a story that you may have heard when you were a kid called Alice in Wonderland.

Yes, this is lessons from a children’s story and those lessons are super relevant even today. Now before we get into the episode and introduction, I want to take a quick sidebar and tell you that I have been away from the studio and not been recording episodes for the last three months. So if you missed me, I am super sorry, that I was not able to do so. It did mean to be such a long break.

It just so happened and I have to tell you one thing that I learned from this break was it is super hard to come back to creating content once you have taken a break. In my case, what was meant to be a short one week break ended up becoming a three month break because then I did not plan when I was coming back into the studio. So pro tip, if you’re taking a break, make sure you have a date that you’re going to come back into the studio on.

And now back to today’s episode. I am talking to my dear friends Warsha and Evan, who you may have heard on other episodes on this podcast. Warsha and Evan are also the hosts of the Dare to Scale show and my business coach for over five years. Warsha Evan and I, love children’s books and we had a super fun time chatting about this episode and then finally get into recording.

In fact, we have a second one plan on a really really popular children’s book that I can’t wait to share with you but, while that episode gets prepared, I love for you to grab your headphones, grab a cup of coffee, turn the volume up if you’re out for a drive and give this episode a really nice listen because it is jam packed with stuff. So help me cue the music.

Dhiren 2:06
You’re listening to the Elevated Entrepreneur podcast, a podcast designed to help retailers, restaurant owners and entrepreneurs simplify business operations and use modern technology to elevate their business. Here’s your host, Dhiren Bhatia.

Dhiren 2:23
Evan Warsha, welcome back to the Elevated Entrepreneur podcast. It is a pleasure having you here.

Evan 2:31
And absolutely wonderful to be here as well, Warsha.

Warsha 2:35
Thank you very much for having us over because it’s always always wonderful to record a high energy podcast with you Dhiren.

Dhiren 2:42
You’re too kind and I know this is actually a very special episode again, because this is a collaboration episode, which means this is also going to come out on a beautiful podcast that I listened to call the Dare to Scale show, by the way, I know the hosts really well Washa and Evan, and thank you for being on the show. You are amazing at your podcast.

Evan 3:01
And like when she says it’s always high energy and it just all totally exciting.

Dhiren 3:06
I love it. So why are we here today? We are having a conversation about children’s books. Yes, you heard that right. Children’s Books. Why Warsha and Evan? Why children’s books?

Evan 3:19
Well, the funny stories, we actually recorded a podcast recently and it was about a wonderful book, The boy the Mole, the Fox and the Horse and it’s a kid’s book and it tells us Maxie is illustrator, and he’s brilliant at what he does and it’s a wonderful story.

And for us, there were so many lessons in it. And I hadn’t told washer that I’d read the book and I said, I know we’re gonna do next episode. So actually narrated the book to her, and we got sort of the feedback on the way through. But there’s so many lessons. And that’s why we did that. And there’s a different book we’re going to talk about today.

Dhiren 3:50
Brilliant. Now that particular episode is going to be linked in in our show notes in your show notes. Is there an episode number that you want to shout out to?

Evan 3:58
Its episode 38.

Dhiren 3:59
Awesome. So it’s episode 38 on the Dare to Scale show, and we will make sure we put links in the show notes for you guys, but today’s book is a brilliant book. I read many, many, many moons ago called Alice in Wonderland. I know Warsha that this is your favorite, favorite book, you want to tell us why it’s your favorite book

Warsha 4:19
For so many reasons. And I’m glad we’re talking about this because so many times we read children’s books and we all read children’s books when we were growing up because guess what they are written for children.

So we read it and we read some lines and some sentences which may or may not completely make sense to us at that age. Without realizing that there are so many wonderful messages over there which set the tone which creates some unconscious messages for yourself in yourself to adapt living life as an adult.

And then what happens, then we grow up then we become these edges cated sensible adults, and we leave those learnings where they were in our childhood in our past, and rarely revisit some of those books to say, Well, what was that all about? Let me read it again.

Because as adults, we think we should be reading adult books, we should be reading self development books. And to me, the simplest, simplest message is hidden in the simplest of sentences. And those we find in children’s books, and Alice is a treasure trove of messages like these. So for me, that is that two, three books, and Alice absolutely is in the top five. So that’s why we’re talking about this.

Dhiren 5:38
And that’s why we’re calling this episode entrepreneurship lessons from Alice in Wonderland. Because I am so excited to get into it. I do think there are some amazing lessons for entrepreneurs in this book. With that, I want to kick it off by asking you this one question. There’s this quote that I read, and I wanted you to help me tear it apart, it says, I don’t see how you can ever finish if it doesn’t even begin. What’s your take on that Warsha?

Warsha 6:02
What do you think? How many times before we even start a business before we never mind start a business, let’s talk about a situation where a business is started. And you’re offering a few services, and there is a potential client and whatever the scenario is, and how many times as adults, we overthink things without actually doing anything about it without taking action. And all we’re looking for is how are we going to complete this what is the end result?

What there’s only one way to find out is to actually start doing it, only when you start doing it or you’re starting the journey. And only then you know what the journey is and how that conclusion is going to be. So it’s very well, talking about it talking about it is only going to take you so far I agree, started begin the journey. Only then there is you even have a hope of finishing something. Otherwise, it’s just a conversation.

Evan 6:57
I’ll totally agree as well. It’s interesting, then, my take on that is simply if you’re overly cautious and you’re using excuses. As such, of course, you’re going to find all the reasons why you shouldn’t. If you just jump in brute and all, you’ll actually move forward and actually get something done.

Dhiren 7:12
I completely agree with you. I think there’s a really good example that I wanted to use here. This podcast actually was such an example. I didn’t start my podcast for many years, because I didn’t want to I was afraid of all the other things that I would have to figure out if I got started. But as you know, and I know now after being podcasting for some time, as you rightly said, it’s about getting started first taking the first step, like in the book, if he doesn’t even begin, it’ll never even happen.

So I absolutely agree with the both of you beginning something as a first step, no matter how dirty it is, or how improvise, it doesn’t really matter. It’s about getting the first step out of the way.

Warsha 7:48
I want to add something over here as an adult, one of the most relatable quotes that you see floating around these days is a journey of 1000 steps begins with the first one.

Dhiren 7:57
Yeah, all the time.

Warsha 7:59
So that we listen or hear or read somewhere on social media and we nod along and yet do we actually embody it to a level where you think will have I taken my first step yet? All I can see is a journey of 1000 steps, and it will become 999. When I take my first step. Absolutely. Anything that you wanted to add on that one?

Evan 8:22
No, I absolutely concur. 1000 miles, 2000 Miles doesn’t really matter how far it is, it always begins with one step.

Dhiren 8:28
I want to ask you guys a question. So I mean, it’s all great and said that we say this, why do you think that a lot of entrepreneurs don’t take that first step? In your minds? And as coaches? Where do you see people not taking the first step?

Evan 8:41
You know, I mean, for me, I think it comes down to even if they have taken the first step, sometimes it’s only then you realize just how much there is to do, for example, when you’re first starting up a business, and that can lead to a sense of overwhelm. So it’s maybe sometimes it’s the second or third step. But powering through that is what we’re talking about.

Dhiren 9:00
I completely agree. Warsha would, in your mind, what’s the reason?

Warsha 9:05
Fear of failure.

Dhiren 9:06
So big.

Warsha 9:07
Fear of failure, fear of the lack of validation, almost so or rather judgment, fear of judgment.

Evan 9:16
You know, it doesn’t even have to be about business only. I remember, this actually came to mind what I was telling you the other day, there was an email came through from my primary school many, many years ago.

And one of those teachers has now sort of moved on. And I remember he’s an amazing swimmer. He actually led the national team and all sorts of things. He was actually brilliant as a sports person. And he was very keen on gymnastics.

And I remember one sort of parents day he was saying, Okay, what we’re going to do is we have a trampoline, you’re going to jump and do a somersault through this big ring of fire. And I remember I misjudged it the one time and I scared myself because I came really close to the bottom of the actual loop itself.

Anyway, I mean, this is primary school, so I was quite young and small and scared myself and then I just refused to do it after that. And yet, It wasn’t that difficult, but the thing is like this can happen to anybody at any time, but it is a matter of actually moving forward.

Warsha 10:07
The what stops is a fear of failure, the fear of being judged.

Dhiren 10:12
And sometimes I think, from my personal experience, it’s also about not knowing what to do, I think we get so overwhelmed with a series of steps that we’re actually not sure. What am I actually going to do here? And so maybe breaking it down into further, very clean action steps, maybe that also good are a great way to get started with something.

Evan 10:30
Do we say? Who do I ask?

Warsha 10:32
There’s a line from the episode that ever narrated is what’s the bravest thing I know, we’re gonna have a separate discussion about it. I can’t help but talk about it. What’s the bravest word or bravest thing that you have done so far? And the answer is ask for help.

Evan 10:47
Exactly what those said, Yeah, correct.

Dhiren 10:49
So true. There’s this shame around asking for help. We seem to be seen, maybe observed, maybe we think we’re going to be seen as weak if we ask for help. But I think quite the contrary, if you ask for help, someone is going to give you the way forward, because they probably done something similar, and they can give you some lessons learned.

Evan 11:07
You know, there’s another interesting book I’m reading at the moment contagion, then in that it talks about social proof. And I sort of cast my mind back to the corporate world where you’re expected to know. So when you come in, you’re expected to be able to produce 100% don’t require training, and you have all the answers.

And I think there’s also that legacy when we come out of the corporate world into entrepreneurship, where we, you know, this lives with us where we expected to know and when we don’t know we get stuck.

Dhiren 11:34
Absolutely. Like you said, it’s you’re expected to know. And I think as entrepreneurs as well, also, there’s this thing that goes there and says, oh, you should be knowing what you’re going to be doing. You’re the one that started the business.

And what do they know that we’re building the plane as we’re falling down the side of the founder, right.

Evan 11:48
I know, but just like, I know, what my vision looks like, and what my dream looks like, it’s the execution piece that I’m having trouble with.

Warsha 11:55
I want to go back to what we were talking about earlier, specifically with what stops people, and why as children, we read these children’s books and children’s book, and then we forget about it. Because as children, we don’t really know fear.

And as children, we don’t really allow or let someone else’s judgment affect us to stop us from doing what we want to do. So we do it with absolute abandon almost.

And that’s when we are really growing as adults, we put a lot of weight on that external validation. And again, this is not about right or wrong, if it works for you, right. At the same time, the belief in our own abilities seem to sway in balance for someone else’s validation, rather than saying, Well, I know I can do it.

And so what if I fail? I’m gonna do it, and see what happens. Take it from there. So as adults, the belief that we inherently have as children somewhere, relies upon someone else’s validation as we grow older. That’s just something I wanted to put it out there. It may resonate with a few people.

Dhiren 13:09
Absolutely, I think question Warsha you and I had when we were doing one of our sessions, this conversation came up. And I came to realize that on my shoulders, I was carrying this big weight, about getting validation from my dad, and wanting his approval, because as a kid, it just so happened that I was in that frame where I’ve always seeking his validation and that baggage continues into adulthood.

To your point, I do think a lot of us carry that baggage into adulthood, maybe not even realizing it. So like you said, maybe it helps someone and maybe it takes a few moments of pondering, whose validation a re we really seeking? And how can we get rid of that baggage? Because all the only validation we need is ourselves.

Warsha 13:47
Yeah, totally and we’ll only know that when we make a start when we start that journey.

Dhiren 13:55
Absolutely. Brilliant. I have a second quote, I think, leads very well into this one and I want to get into that one dig into it says here, the best way to explain it, is to do it.

Warsha 14:09
I love this and before we talk about that, then what does that mean to you?

Dhiren 14:14
Oh, I think, again, I only use this podcast as an example. I could not have helped so many other people start and even think about a podcast if I hadn’t done my own. And so I had taken the first step, I went through that rite of passage and made the mistakes that I should have made, as expected and then I was able to help somebody else not make the same mistake. To me that’s really, really important. If I’m going to give someone the advice, I should have at least tried it before.

Warsha 14:40
He should have at least given it a shot before totally and the more relevant part that people will identify with is over here. The best way to learn something is to teach it. Take a children’s book and you will find messages over there. How many times do we read this and think nothing of that photo? Today we’ll look back and say wow, that actually has meaning over there. Can you read that? quote again, for us please Dhiren.

Dhiren 15:02
Of course, the best way to explain it is to do it.

Warsha 15:06
So the best way to teach it is to actually demonstrate to do it yourself. Because when people watch somebody else doing it, you can also see what you have been through to actually get the result that you’re aiming for. So, you are now showing someone how to go through those steps that is required.

So the best way to explain it is to actually show it, go do it yourself, do it with someone and putting it in the entrepreneurial space. Ask for help. Yes. And we just talked about asking for help. Ask for help from someone who’s already done it before.

Dhiren 15:43
Absolutely. That’s what I was taking this one as well. That is such a brilliant suggestion.

Warsha 15:47
Yeah, if someone has done this before, talk to them sit down. Because when you ask for help, believe me there is everybody in this world who is actually open to help someone else we just never ask. And we don’t ask the right people, we ask people who may have may or may not ever done what you’re looking to do, because we trust those people.

So we ask them, are they the right people to ask for what advice that you’re looking for, to go and talk to somebody who’s already done this before, and let them show you what it takes to get to where you want to get to.

Dhiren 16:20
And there’s a million people that would give you all the wrong advice, because they haven’t really even attempted to do it. So watch who you’re getting your advice from.

Evan 16:28
Like, I think there’s there’s a lot of truth in that. I remember reading somewhere, it’s quite interesting. When you have a chance to leave, there’s all these experts around telling you what to do. They may have actually gone through the journey themselves.

Sure. But suddenly, there’s all these experts. It’s like, it’s just back off people, you know, just let me breathe. But it also, it’s asking for help, but asking for the right person.

Dhiren 16:48
Someone who’s got skin in the game, right? Someone who’s done been there done that?

Evan 16:52
Yeah, yeah. Because they know what to look for, as you journey along. I mean, I look, it doesn’t matter what it is. I remember learning to drive a car. I mean, this is a very different sort of thing. My dad and one of the previous podcasts we talked about, my dad used to be a racing driver. So when I was learning, he would see give me all these pointers, which were completely not relevant.

You know, when you’re going into corner, Do this, do that. And yet, after a while, when you by yourself, that’s when you you know, it’s all the pieces of advice suddenly there, and you actually hear it, but he knew what to look for and suddenly you can see what he meant. But at the time, it wasn’t quite there.

Dhiren 17:25
100% agreed.

Warsha 17:26
It also brings me to this question that it may be very clear to a lot of people, it may not be completely clear to a few. What’s the difference between a coach and a mentor, or finding a coach is also mentor who’s actually been there, done that.

So mentor is somebody who’s already done this before you. So for a mentor, it’s very easy, then to explain this, because now they’re explaining as a real life experience. So when you do that, you’re gonna go through this, you’re gonna go, that’s the obstacle you’re gonna probably pick up on and that’s how you will resolve it, and show you that absolute way forward.

Evan 18:03
And there’s also the absolute truth of your the sum total of the six people that you hang around with, I forget the exact quote on that one. But if you’re not looking upwards and reaching out, you know, you’ll never actually get there.

Never get there at all. I mean, it’s like water. In your case, you’ve built several companies. He done that that million dollar turnover. And you know, for somebody else who wants to get there, they will come and talk to you about that.

Warsha 18:25
And the best way to explain it, is to do it. Yeah.

Dhiren 18:30
Can I do a shameless plug here for the both of us? We have a phenomenal episode, actually the first collaboration episode that we did on the topic of coaches, and Masterminds, Episode Four on the Dare to Scale show, and it’s Episode 18, on the Elevated Entrepreneur podcast.

So if anybody’s listening and interested to check it out, I highly, highly invite you to go to both of these links And sorry,, and And you are in for a treat. I’m done with a plug.

Warsha 19:06
This is a great plug also, this is also a great example Dhiren because this exactly what you said. So you were already a podcaster when you showed us because we came to you to say hey, what do you do when you are starting a podcast? The best way for you to explain was to actually lead us through what you did. So the best way to explain was to show how it’s done.

Dhiren 19:31

Warsha 19:32
And here we are.

Evan 19:33
We learned a lot that day.

Warsha 19:35
No no over to you.

Dhiren 19:36
No, I was just going to summarize two things to watch out for, remember, if you’re going to teach someone make sure you tried to attempt it and you’ve done it and I think are very key one is also watch where you’re getting advice from because there’s a lot of million naysayers that could give you all sorts of advice, who probably haven’t attempted to do what you’re thinking of doing.

Warsha 19:54
I know what you have the squat lined up somewhere and to that I want to tag is there are million out there who will give you that advice, which is right, in their perspective, it just may not be right for you. So I want to make that very clear that advice is not wrong, it just is not right for you.

Because there’s a very fine line of distinction that we fail to see, sometimes when you hear a word like that, there are a million people out there who will give you the advice, but it’s not right. It’s right. From their perspective. It’s just not right for you. So watch out for that.

Dhiren 20:26
Thank you for that. And actually, that’s a great segue into that one leading to wishes. I’m not crazy, my reality is different from yours.

Warsha 20:39
That is my absolute favorite quote. It really is. Because to me, that’s a wonderful summarization is that even a word summarize. Okay, so it’s a wonderful summarization of how each one of us all a billion people in the world, how we look at the world, we look at the world completely from our perspective.

And to us, the perspective that shows the world in the way in all its glory, that it is, seems the only right way for somebody else, my view of the world might be completely crazy, and yet, my reality is just different from yours, that doesn’t make it right or wrong and the minute we peel those layers, and I’m gonna ask Dhiren ask you to repeat this quote, in a few times during this discussion, because the stronger we actually get the meaning of that, quote, the easier and it’s almost like a path of least resistance that we take when you finish listening to this episode and we now tackle the world all over again.

Because every single word we hear from every single person in whatever varying degree that you take it, we take it with a little bit of judgment, because it may or may not fit, fit your craziness. And that’s where the judgment comes from. What’s right for me, crazy as it sounds, is perfectly wonderful for me and crazy for you. My reality is just different from yours.

Dhiren 22:12
Also a great way to summarize all the crazy stuff that’s happening in the world today.

Evan 22:17
You know, I remember, it depends how stuck, we are being right. And I know, a long time ago, I was I grew up in a very strong household with the right and wrong and that sort of judgment kind of space.

And, like a long time ago, when I heard oh, we agree to disagree, in my mind that translated to yeah, you know, I’m right, you’re wrong, and probably there was a little bit more judgment, well, you’re just an idiot. But that’s not the case, the more you go through life, and certainly, since being more in the entrepreneurial world, you know what, there is no one right? It’s not even right or wrong.

It’s just there are different models of the world out there. And what’s right to me is okay, I remember, once many years ago, somebody said to me, You know what, you don’t have any values?

You’re not actually I do, but you’re not in a place where I can say that we agree to disagree, I just have a different set of priorities than you do. It doesn’t make me wrong and doesn’t make you right. So it very much is like, well, it’s it’s different to yours.

Warsha 23:14
Let me put this into context for an entrepreneur out there. So let’s assume you’ve got a great job and you now thinking, Well, I’m done. Being an employee, I’m really good at what I do. I’m going to go start a business. For someone else who this is a completely alien concept, or people who are looking out for you.

What are some of the common things that person might hear? What are you doing? You have a great salary, you have a stable income, you’re good at what you do you probably up for promotion in a year or two?

Why are you leaving all that and going and starting your own business when you already have a wonderful stable income? You know, business is risky? It’s really is do you really want to take that risk? You probably have a family that depends on you.

And yet, for this, in quotes, “crazy person” is thinking, yes and also, like that is something that I’ve always wanted to do and here’s my chance to do it, for whatever reasons that drives them and so that person’s reality. While it seems crazy to someone else, it’s just a different reality. They both sound crazy to each other and at which point do you say, You know what? crazy as it sounds, I’m doing it.

Dhiren 24:37
I absolutely agree with you wish, I think very, very true. I want to provide another perspective from an entrepreneurs view. And we did this in the training that you did for us recently, right? How many times do we listen to actually listen? And how many times do we listen to respond and that’s that exact same thing that’s kicking in. I’m only listening to respond with my worldview, and impose my reality on you

Warsha 25:00
Yeah, totally, many, many times, not many times, most times, we listened. So we can respond and respond with our model of the world or our reality of the world. And for us, it’s perfectly okay because if I’m listening, and I’m looking to respond in my model of the world, I’m thinking what, but I need to caution this person about something or bring a different perspective, which is brilliant at the same time, listen.

Because only when you just listen without the need to formulate a response in your head before even the person has finished their question, or the statement, stop us from looking at, why is this person saying what they’re saying, I might learn something over there.

Dhiren 25:45

Anuneet 25:47
Like you say, you go messed, in a way, it’s not about the people, it’s about the situation. And oftentimes, if you do take, literally take that step back and have a look at the situation, remove the emotion, suddenly, everything else starts making sense, and that is a different way of looking at that sort of same perspective.

Dhiren 25:59
There’s a third code that I think can also bleed into this one, which is,we are all mad here and I think this is set by the Cheshire Cat, we are all mad here. Yeah, I really, really want to die.

Warsha 26:05
Because who is not mad? What’s mad for me is it’s even crazier for you. And yet, we’re all mad here. And that’s what makes this world wonderful the way it is. So who are we to judge someone else’s madness?

Warsha 26:34
Love it. We’re all bad here. And it becomes truer, the more you’re surrounded by entrepreneurs, because they all finally feel whoa, this is amazing. So I’m not the only mad person over here, I’m joined by 10 other mad people, let’s do this, because it’s the mad people who go and change the world. Because they’re mad enough to see a different reality, they’re mad enough to say, I’m gonna see what is absolutely possible.

Because to me, that is possible, I can see it, I can touch and feel it and the drive the ambition, when you touch and feel a completely unreal situation, is what drives people to go and make that a reality. It’s the mad people who go change the world.

Evan 27:13
Couldn’t agree with you more. I mean, we sort of inferring this before you become like those you associated. Okay, so like, what does that even mean? So, the entrepreneurs, yes? Are the crazy people hang out with enough and you will think anything as possible. So there was a time when I used to read the things over here about like, Burning Man, which is a very interesting, sort of, I think, Nevada or something in the US.

Yeah, a lot of tech entrepreneurs go there. And whatever it is that goes on, but they brainstorm and they come away with all sorts of amazing ideas and stuff. But they’re all mad. You know, in my previous life, I would never have even thought about, you know, going there. But you know what, I’m curious now.

Warsha 27:54
Dhiren what does that mean to you?

Dhiren 27:58
I’m thinking about this other side of this quote, I think also from I can cite my example. When I started my business, I was the only mad one in my business and now I have a team of nine that are equally mad that equally passionate about my vision and my purpose and I think in that sense, in our company, we’re all mad.

We’re all mad about one single purpose and one single rallying cry and I think that’s true for most companies. When you have data strong mission, everybody becomes mad about that mission.

Dhiren 28:26
Absolutely and I have to give credit to you for that Dhiren because the madness started with you. So there are a few things that you did right over there to get in to engage people, the right people who saw your vision of madness, to inspire them, because you were actually talking to their values, to say, why are we doing this?

So come be mad with me, because only us mad team over here are going to change someone’s life. We’re making a success of this, madder we are, the better we are. So well done. Very well done. So proud of you.

Evan 29:06
High five.

Warsha 29:07
Good job, high five.

Dhiren 29:09
I’m really happy being called mad.

Warsha 29:13

Warsha 29:14
No, you just need the two and six have to go with it

Warsha 29:18
All the space, whatever your definition of madness is, whatever you think the craziness in you is driving that change in the world own that space.

Evan 29:29
As I say whatever floats your boat, and all these little expressions suddenly start making a lot more sense.

Warsha 29:34
And if you really say whatever floats your boat, say it without judgment, because it’s like agreeing to disagree. It’s not, whatever floats your boat. Yeah, go float that boat on a sea of milk if that’s what you want to do. Do it. Again.

Dhiren 29:49
There’s one more angle to this right, which is sometimes we stop ourselves from being mad. We have this thing in our voice saying I don’t think that’s right. I don’t think you’re doing the right thing. Self doubt is the worst way to stop being mad.

In this conversation, mad being mad is a good thing. I think that is also a very important thing to address here. Because what I think is stopping me from being mad is my world view of someone else’s success? And how do I know they’re not mad also? So there’s a lot of that self talk that happens, as entrepreneurs we should watch out for.

Warsha 30:22
Let’s go back to the question that you asked towards the beginning of this episode, is what stops people from making that start is the fear of failure, fear of judgment. So fear of judgment is what stops us from bringing out our own madness, our own craziness.

Because to you, your brand of crazy your brand of madness is not socially acceptable. It may be very, very simple as I want to go start a business or I want to go buy a certain car, if you can afford it. How many times do you think well, should I buy it? What do people say? What will people say tomorrow? Because now it’s a good thing to cycle to work.

10 years ago, people would look at you and think, really? What’s wrong with you? So who’s reality? And whose judgment? Do we let ourselves be bound by, that I love that angle that you put forward? Totally, totally true. Because we think our brand of crazy may not be accepted socially. So we hold ourselves back, be unique, be different, because it’s the only way to set yourself apart.

Why do we go through several layers of exercises to say it purely as a business? How do you differentiate yourself from your customers, because you want to stand out, there’s a certain element of craziness that goes with it. You pushing boundaries, over to you Dhiren what do you think?

Dhiren 31:52
Absolutely. So the best way to put this in my head is, how does it really matter? We’re all mad here anyways, how does it really matter what I want to do and what you want to do? Just do it, just just get out and do it.

Warsha 32:06
Can you read them first? Again, please? I’m not crazy.

Dhiren 32:10
I’m not crazy. My reality is just different from yours.

Warsha 32:14
Yes do a couple more times as we go through the episode.

Evan 32:20
Other people’s opinions of you have no authority over you unless you let them.

Dhiren 32:25
Thank you. That’s brilliant.

Evan 32:26
If you wanting to improve, then again, like you were saying there and listen to the right person, if you want the right feedback. And what I mean by that is the constructive feedback, not the cramped thinking kind of feedback. So it’s actually quite interesting, sometimes easier to do to say than to do.

Dhiren 32:41
I was just gonna say this one, I think we should all just do a mic drop and walk away episode finished, beautiful episode, as is so much so much taken away from this already.

Evan 32:49
There’s a little bit more, there’s one more quote, right. 100%.

Evan 32:53

Dhiren 32:54
And I love how this is going. But I just I love the conversation that we’re having, because…

Anuneet 32:59
I would drop the mic, its in the stand.

Dhiren 33:03
So the next one that I feel again, segues into this one, who in the world am I? Ah, that’s the great puzzle, said by Alice,

Warsha 33:13
I want to turn the mic on you then what do you think that means? I asked you because recently, we have been through this program that I like for your team and we addressed a lot of issues over here. I want to take a pause before you answer this question. T

here are, this episode is titled, entrepreneurial lessons or lessons for the entrepreneur from Alice? Is it different, being an entrepreneur and just being a person, because it’s the person who becomes the entrepreneur is the person who brings every little baggage or the lack thereof, to this world that we call entrepreneurship and we suddenly feel we have to become a different person to become an entrepreneur.

In many ways that is true, because you’ve got to let go, you’ve got to let go of inhibitions. You got to grow slightly thicker skin, you’ve got to absolutely work, blood, sweat and tears, to make a dream a reality.

Are they different? Because I know this conversation is leading more towards us, the spotlight is on us as individuals, because it is us as individuals, or I’ve been an entrepreneur for the past 20 years, does it matter? Unless the change happens from within you, the change is not going to show up in the world that you’re creating. So now, you read that part again for us, please and tell us what you think.

Dhiren 34:32
Of course,

Warsha 34:33
Dhiren over to you.

Dhiren 34:34
Thank you. The quote is, who in the world am I? Ah, that’s the great puzzle,

Evan 34:41
A great puzzle according to whom? It is a great puzzle and belief itself, I think is one of those those key things, we all have a voice and we will have something to share. You know, there’s so much we can learn from each other and as far as that goes, You know what? Speak up. Absolutely speak up. So yeah, who are you? You’re you.

Warsha 35:01
I want to turn the spotlight back on Dhiren again, Dhiren what does this mean to you?

Dhiren 35:04
For me, there’s so much in that statement. Firstly, it’s about knowing who you really want to be, firstly, and it’s not a bad thing to not know who you want to be. It’s a journey and I remember from the book, you know, Alice is actually smiling when she says, because she’s happy about this puzzle that she’s in.

It’s not a problem for her, and yet, so many of us have this existential question in our minds, who am I? What am I here to do?

What am I going to do? How am I going to solve this problem? Well, that’s the beauty of life. That’s the journey we’re all on. And it is meant to be figured out one step at a time and that’s why it’s a puzzle, it comes together like a piece by piece by piece.

And you really don’t have all the answers at any given point in time, you always have a piece of the puzzle, but never the full puzzle.

Warsha 35:46
Because with every evolving day, we are a different person. There is another quote somewhere and analysis along those lines, and I think these two go together, hand in hand, I don’t know if you have it on the list. Let me read it out, and it goes something like this. “It’s no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then”. So who are you? Is that a puzzle? And is there a definite answer to that particular question?

And every time that question comes up, yes, we can go into massive existential or philosophical discussions over here. The simple thing to note over here is, let me put it this way, do you make life happened around you, then your job is to be who you are today, to what is required of you today? And what the magic happened? Because tomorrow, you’re going to be a wiser person.

Learning from what you did today. You’re gonna continue making magic again.

Dhiren 36:51

Warsha 36:52
Could you repeat us both quotes again, please Dhiren.

Dhiren 36:56
So the first one is, who in the world? Am I? Ah, that’s the great puzzle, and the one that you very beautifully said that goes well, very well with it, is, it’s no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then.

Warsha 37:13
Love it.

Dhiren 37:14

Warsha 37:16
Absolutely love it.

Dhiren 37:17
True and I think from an entrepreneurs perspective, what I’m thinking about when I, when I hear this again, the first one is, most times as entrepreneurs were tasked with this big, ask, what is your company’s mission? What is your company’s purpose?

And I can tell you from experience as startup founder, I actually didn’t know our purpose for the longest time and maybe I think, sometimes there’s a doubt in my head, even today, our purpose is correct, but I say that a founder deep down in his heart, and his mind in his gut knows why he or she started that company and so take that and run with it and let it evolve, let it come together like that puzzle. Let it put itself together for you, as opposed to sitting there and worrying about it

Warsha 38:01
And it takes us back all the way to I think one of the first quotes that we talked about, you got to make a beginning. Only when you start something, do you know what it’s going to evolve into, and let it evolve because just as your business evolves, just as the world around you evolves, you are constantly evolving, you are a catalyst for of evolution, we just don’t think it’s something that is ever changing because we socially defined to be set in a way where we conform to certain norms, and we don’t give ourselves room for evolution.

So there’s no point in looking at what happened yesterday, except to say, what brought me here was yesterday, yesterday, doesn’t define where I go tomorrow.

Dhiren 38:47
And also, I think a lot of us carry regret and disappointment. Oh, I wish I had done that I could have I should have and that’s pointless. As you said, I am a different person from yesterday. So why carry that regret? What has happened has happened better to move on and look at the and thank yourself for that experience and move on to the next and the better thing, especially as entrepreneurs that I think we’re all guilty of that we have such regret in our hearts and minds.

I wish I had spoken to that client differently, or I had closed that deal. Hey, you are richer for the experience, as we all are, and take that and run with that. Because you’re a different person today.

Warsha 39:21
You are and there is no failure there’s only feedback because so what if the result wasn’t exactly as you wanted? At least next time, you know how to do it differently? I wouldn’t classify that as failure, would you?

Dhiren 39:34
Absolutely not.

Warsha 39:36
Because like you said, Dhiren it is you’re richer for the experience.

Evan 39:40
All of that helps bounce you forward.

Warsha 39:42

Evan 39:43
It really is. It’s a matter of bouncing forward and being able to let go, which is another way of saying thank you to the experience and move on. It’s just being able to let go.

Dhiren 39:51
And that saying thank you. It’s such a hard skill to learn because we don’t know that we should be thanking ourselves for that experience. We think again, I am repeating myself about regret and disappointment but the better way to handle it is actually to say thank you. Give yourself the grace to fall, give yourself the grace to make mistakes, and move on because you’re the only mad person that’s actually doing that brave step. So why beat yourself over it.

Warsha 40:16
Have the grace to give yourself gratitude and the things beautifully said Dhiren a very, very nice.

Dhiren 40:22
Well, thank you. I’m mad. That’s why

Dhiren 40:27
I love it. I totally love it.

Dhiren 40:31
I have two more quotes.

Warsha 40:33
Go for it.

Dhiren 40:33
To get into and I want to jump into this and I love how this is building up. The next one actually is very, very, very close to me. I read this, and I loved it when I saw this in the workbook. Why? Sometimes I’ve believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast.

Warsha 40:50
What were your first thoughts? This is I have to stop giggling and please keep this in the edit. I am absolutely loving this conversation. So why did I did that? Did that stick to you? Or did that suddenly make you sit back and maybe have a giggle a chuckle or two.

Dhiren 41:07
I just don’t do it. I don’t sit and dream. I have such an analytical person, and I’m such a back to basics kind of person. I’m always in the weeds. How would I do this? How would I do that? And what’s the next step?

But one of my biggest duties as a founder is to dream is to imagine, imagine the impossible, only then can someone bring it to live and I laugh because I think this is a great reminder for me and I think a great reminder for all entrepreneurs is why not imagine why not dream? What’s stopping us? Is it a whole thing that we’ve talked about the fear of judgment, the fear of starting the first step, that’s all secondary?

The first step is to dream but I want to hear what you thought Warsha. Obviously, we also want to hear Evan. So Warshan I’ll let you go first.

Warsha 41:53
To me, it comes down to a few things. One, how many times do we grow up? Being told? That’s impossible, think realistic and we get into the scenario where you think, Oh, is that realistic? Who knows until you actually do it? For someone to achieve something, let’s say climbing Mount Everest was impossible and yet somebody did it and suddenly made it possible for somebody for 1000s of other people.

So give yourself that space that time and allow yourself to think of something so impossible so outside the realm of belief that you hold at all you’re doing over there for yourself is expanding those boundaries to say today, let’s put it in entrepreneurial terms.

Let’s say you want to set a financial target for your company. Let’s just keep it fairly basic. Let’s not go down the discussion of well, financial targets is not everything. Let’s understand that. Financial targets is the thing that you will set for your business. Yeah, because we all do. How many times do you base those financial targets on what happened last year? So what’s a realistic target for this year?

Let’s say we increase by 10%. Someone will push the boundary and say oh, no, no, let’s really go for it. Let’s make it 12%. Or maybe 15%. Oh, my goodness, that’s really a you show and then a Mad Hatter somewhere that says, What are you talking about? Doesn’t matter what we did last year? If we want 25% over last year?

Let’s set that and then we’ll find how to do it and how many times do people around the day will go and thing? Here your man that’s not going to happen, that’s impossible. How many times do we say impossible and yet everything is possible.

So allow yourself that time to think of I love that, particularly because as many as six impossible things before breakfast hasn’t even started yet and you’re already expanding the boundaries of your imagination to a level where you think, what how if before breakfast, if I can think of six impossible things, my day is already looking brighter and better full of magic than yesterday was

Dhiren 44:10

Warsha 44:11
Whether you are an entrepreneur, or whatever else that you do in life, or maybe you’re a student, does it matter? Because that’s how you are shaping yourself, you’re thinking to be and guess what, just like didn’t you have done?

Those are the kinds of people you will attract into your company who say right, we’ll all get six impossible things dreamt before breakfast, because when we come together, goodness me, that’s the kind of magic that we are looking to change the world. I love it. I love that particular quote. It always makes me giggle and chuckle and I become a little kid when I hear that will take that is so true and yet we don’t Evan over to you what do you think?

Evan 44:52
For me, it really boils down to that simple sort of framework. We’re not even framework, it’s just removing constraints. There are no boundaries. I mean, Einstein, I mean, there’s all sorts of memes out there, but Einsteins, like oh, you know, knowledge is a finite, you know sort of framed kind of a space imagination is limitless and that’s sort of what it means to me and the funny thing is, I’ve always believed everything is possible, I don’t know how what I mean is like there and you’re saying with that detail, what I need to know, I need to know, your I don’t know how I’m just accepting that anything is possible.

And if that is how you move forward, then all the better sometimes frequently get stuck with it, or how to, you know, that detail level. And the wonderful thing in our household is, while I might be sort of tactically detailed, if you will, you know, Russia is strategically bouncing off the walls with those six ideas and it’s sometimes very hard to keep up a nd yet it’s magic, because it does open up the road ahead. It really does have unlimited possibilities.

Dhiren 45:54
You know, the one thing that’s coming to my mind at the moment, and I know this is going to sound a bit weird that we’re going to jump to another show. I know you guys have seen Ted Lasso and Ted Lasso is the scene where he puts the big word believe, right on the wall.

As soon as he gets into this first day on his first new job as a coach of a football team in that, for me, it was such a big moment, because believing in is this so much that you can believe there’s so much to do. So much just believing in it is key.

Warsha 46:25
I think I want to go a little bit deeper. And yes, I agree. We love the show. It is beautiful in its own way. And that word believe actually changed everything for the team for everyone surrounding the team and believe it believe in what you can achieve believe in you guys together as a team, that the where does it believe really start

Dhiren 46:47
With the founder

Warsha 46:48
Within yourself

Dhiren 46:49
Within yourself within the founder? Absolutely.

Warsha 46:51
So embody that belief, to a degree, where it’s never mind unshakable. It’s like a rock in you. That whatever you can imagine, however impossible it is, when you believe in yourself and you can achieve it impossible doesn’t even have a place anymore in your life.

Evan 47:12
You know, in terms of sort of what you believe it’s like, it’s that interesting space where, you know, dream big dreams, because the facts don’t count and it’s chasing what you’re actually heading for and then so it sort of means to me and also, if you remember in the show, we were talking about that belief picture. I don’t think it was straight.

First up, I think it was at a slightly lopsided and eventually later in the show dusty straightened up when everybody actually does believe what I loved about that was belief. So I’m sitting there nodding Yep. Who believe your pictures not straight. I’m thinking after crying out loud. You know, this is that judgment sort of thing. What the heck is wrong with you just go with what he’s saying, you know, and it really comes down to their belief. The facts don’t count. That’s where I want to go.

Dhiren 47:54
Why I believe in six things before breakfast, six big things before breakfast,

Warsha 48:00
And be less I love the reframe six big things before breakfast, because today’s big can become even bigger tomorrow. So who are we to place boundaries on ourselves.

Dhiren 48:12
And the last quote, Warsha and Evan is “The beautiful bow on this present that we’ve got here is when I used to read fairy tales, I fancy that kind of thing never happened and now here I am, in the middle of one”. Purely entrepreneurs perspective, when you are not an entrepreneur, the entrepreneur space almost feels like a fairy tale.

It’s real for someone else. Someone else is making this a reality that doesn’t happen to regular people like us and let you want to dip your toes in it to think how wonderful it almost as an escapism to saying well, I want to go there because that seems like a beautiful life to have and then you actually step into it and find yourself in the fairytale.

Everything’s seems so surreal. Everything that we have talked about. We don’t even know how they’re opening up. I don’t even know what to do with them. So you are now slobbing and buying in the middle of this amazing fairy tale that you are writing yourself. It is your tale that you’re writing. So surreal as it is, it’s a wonderful place to embrace.

Evan 49:27
Digital what she said. I mean, honestly, it really is as simple as that man. Absolutely as simple as that. But you do.

Dhiren 49:34
I think it’s also about appreciating what you’ve got. We all are in our own fairy tales. Do we actually appreciate that we are in one like you said, Warsha? Do we actually recognize that we’re in one? Oh, I wish I had this car and I wish I had this department and I wish I had traveling around the world but you have a fairy tale of your own you are in one. And it’s about appreciating that and believing in that.

Evan 49:56
I want to add something to this where in pop culture there’s a there’s a certain movie that came out in 99. And actually talks about the red pill and the blue pill. Anybody who doesn’t know what I’m talking about is The Matrix and the text from the movie is you take the blue pill, the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill, you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes and that is so apt in this sort of space where and particularly with

The Matrix, if you remember, there’s there’s places where you know, something’s not quite right. And then you know, the guy pushes the mirror at one point, it actually moves and suddenly is like, Hey, this is what’s real. In fact, there was a, we’re talking about this earlier. Unreal, surreal. Okay, you pick, but it’s your fairy tale and you can make it whatever you want to make it.

Warsha 50:46
It’s your fairy tale, you can make it whatever you want to make it and when you know, it’s your fairy tale, own that space. That’s something I know you’ve both heard me say it so many times, whatever space you are in, own it.

Because only when you own it does you make it real for yourself. If it’s a place that you don’t really want to be only when you own it will you know how to get out of it and if that’s the place you want to be only when you own it will you know how to make this an even bigger picture than it is today. So every tale, every person’s life is a fairy tale for someone else.

Evan 51:21
And you know, all the modern day gurus talking about limitless and all that sort of thing. Interestingly, Alice in Wonderland, I think was published about 18 years, 1865, something like that. So these thoughts and views of the world are not new at all and that’s the power in this particular children story. There are so many lessons in so many levels, you can take it to whatever level you want.

Warsha 51:47
Dhiren I just want to hear your your thoughts on this last quote, just to summarize, what are you taking away from this?

Dhiren 51:55
It’s about believing in the magic that you can create for yourself, because you’ve already created that. So I think again, I would go back to my time as a founder and how I started this brand and this business and I know I spent a countless number of hours thinking, Oh, I wish I could do this and I wish I could do that. And I wish I had this.

But here I am. Four years later, I’ve done my time I continue to put one foot in front of the other because I believe in the magic that I’ve created for myself, I believed in the fairy tale that I’m in the middle of.

I think that’s a lot of us as entrepreneurs forget that to be you know, the grass is always greener on the other side and it’s about forgetting that like I’ve been missing all the Guru’s say That’s right. It’s about realizing where you’re at, and appreciating what you have. So we are all in a fairy tale. And we have to love it and believe in it. Because that’s our fate and and you can be whatever you want it to be

Warsha 52:43
From Alice as if closing code am I allowed to add one more, please? Oh, it’s from Winnie the Pooh and that is my mantra for the day and it’s become Evans mantra for the day as well. The quotee goes like this. “What day is it?” Said boo to piglet, “No, it’s today.”

So as Piglet, and Pooh says, “My favorite day. Because to me every day is my favourite day. Because only when I see it as a favourite day will I give it my all, whatever the day brings, whatever the day you shape it out to me, I will give it my all because today is my favorite day.”

Dhiren 53:26
I love I love I love that and I also love how you’ve teased the second part of this episode. So wherever you’re listening, there’s Part Two coming and part two actually goes into Winnie the Pooh and which day is that? Well, that day is today. So we’re going to be back with part two. So stay tuned for that everybody.

Evan 53:45
Looking forward to it Absolutely.

Dhiren 53:47
Warsha and Evan, thank you for such a wonderful, wonderful conversation. There’s so many lessons that I’ve taken away from this conversation. Thank you for helping me break apart these magical quotes from a book from the 1800s. A phenomenal, phenomenal conversation. Thank you very much starting, because

Warsha 54:06
Not a lot of people pick up a children’s book and start a conversation for entrepreneurship from there. So well done on doing that. It is such a pleasure to be here.

Evan 54:15
Thank you for having us. It’s been absolutely wonderful. Yeah.

Dhiren 54:18
And part two comes out very soon. So stay tuned on both the shows on Dare to Scale and the Elevated Entrepreneur podcast.

Dhiren 54:28
Thank you so much for staying with me till the very end of the episode. You’ve done it. I’ve got three specific asks for you only if you think that this podcast is worthy of your support and if you’ve enjoyed the content, my first request is for you to hit the subscribe button. Actually smash that subscribe button so that you can get notified when new episodes come your way or if you haven’t already, head on over to and subscribe to the podcast on the website so that new episodes are emailed to you right away.

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